Snowman posted on Monday, 20 March, 2006 - 09:35 pm
An inferior copy to disk here Scipio, and only in mono. I'd consider the laserdisk, at least that was in stereo!!!!! Have a look elsewhere in the threads here, I'm sure I've seen mention of a proper transfer going about the rounds.
Chris posted on Monday, 20 March, 2006 - 11:13 pm
If you want a good copy in STEREO, Myke is your man. I hope he won't mind me mentioning this, as I'm sure he's offered to do copies via this forum in the past.
Scipio posted on Thursday, 23 March, 2006 - 12:35 pm
The VHS recording that I have is in STEREO not mono. Don't know what you have...
Chris posted on Thursday, 23 March, 2006 - 10:12 pm
That's curious. I am pretty certain that my VHS copy is in mono. Mind you, it doesn't state either way on the packaging, but it sounds as if it's in mono and when I play it, the stereo indicator on my VCR goes off. Just out of interest, my tape is BBCV 3017. Was there ever a stereo version released officially on VHS? I didn't think so...
Bill D posted on Friday, 24 March, 2006 - 08:04 pm
That tape is so old that it may not have a HiFi stereo track (i.e., FM embedded in the video track). If it does, it would say so on the packaging.
However, some old VHS tapes have Dolby stereo in the conventional audio track, running alonside the video track. I imagine that few VCRs have the facility to replay that these days, relying on the HiFi signal for stereo. The stereo indicator migth not illuminate
Tricky posted on Tuesday, 28 March, 2006 - 06:55 pm
The BBC were quite capable of (I'm not saying they did!) making stereo TV transmissions as early as 1979, but there were few, if any, TVs with true stereo circuitry around. Maybe the mega-rich...
They were, without any doubt, capable of making stereo VHS tapes right from the word Go. But without any consumer equipment capable of correctly replaying this at that time, would they go in for future proofing? Someone (the BBC) had to tell the VHS player manufacturers how the multiplex signal was composed and which frequency flagged up chrominance, luminance, stereo etc. Omit the stereo flag and you get mono... C'mon Scipio, give a clue...
What's surprised me is how long ago HDTV - now being pushed as the next "BIG THING" - was being researched. Take a look at BBC Milestones - 1982. Of course there was no point in transmitting it to the CRT televisions of that era...
I was in Comet before christmas and saw a BIG widescreen TFT TV with the screen pixel size and resolution you'd normally see on a TFT PC screen. Saliva dribbling from the corner of my mouth, I asked how much? I don't remember the next few minutes (odd how you can't remember pain) but when my current TV blows, Ill take out a 2nd mortgage. I want to see Sky on it...
Anyway, I've fixed my lava-lamp and it's brew-time...
Bill D posted on Tuesday, 28 March, 2006 - 11:49 pm
"They were...capable of making stereo VHS tapes...from the word Go. But without any consumer equipment capable of correctly replaying this at that time..."
There was equipment. The stereo on the pre-HiFi VHS was recorded as two conventional audio tracks ("Dolby stereo" then). All that was needed was to take the left and right signals from the VCR (via line-out sockets if the machine had it) to a stereo amplifier.
Many early pre-HiFi VHS machines had it. Some of the old V2000 machines (a system superior to VHS) had stereo line-outs. V2000 had reversible tapes and one of the last machines (a Grundig) had auto-reverse and half-speed. With a conventional 5 hr per side tape played at half speed, that would give 20 hours of continuous stereo recording, as much as my new Sky+ machine!
Tim posted on Wednesday, 29 March, 2006 - 12:28 am
So if that technology was there from the beginning, that explains why no-one ever made a video that you could understand how to set up timer recordings...
Sky+. Arghhhhhhhhhhh... whenever Sky phone up wanting me to take up their service they just can't understand that I don't want it. Last time they couldn't get off the phone fast enough when I asked them to confirm they'd remove my number from their database (they won't have done).
Tricky posted on Wednesday, 29 March, 2006 - 09:33 am
Hah! - I'd forgotten about the line-outs. My brain was firmly fixed on TV sets built in plywood boxes with no remote control... (and Valves!)
My curiosity's aroused now. Unfortunately I don't have a VHS tape to satisfy it. Does anyone out there have the tape, a modern VHS player, a PC with a capture card that will accept line-in(s) - even via a suitable adapter - audio editing software and the spare time to take a look at the audio waveforms?
(Valves ! - now I AM showing my age....)
Bill D posted on Wednesday, 29 March, 2006 - 08:20 pm
"...a video that you could understand how to set up timer recordings"
My first VCR was a V2000. On the (angled) front panel it had buttons for start and stop times and dates, and a numeric keypad to enter the information. It was the easiest yet.
I love my Sky+. Apart from anything else, the picture is great. Minds you, I got it VERY cheap! :-)
Tim posted on Wednesday, 29 March, 2006 - 09:50 pm
Now you've got Sky+ will you be selling that V2000 on eBay? Sounds easy.
Incidentally, will it find FM embedded in the video track, 'cos it ought to be SG not FM on it!!!!
posted on Thursday, 30 March, 2006 - 03:53 pm
Can't say as how I know much about the electronics you guys are talking about. My understanding of stereo on VHS was thus:- it was a hi-fi helical track interleaved with the video, while the old linear track was the mono one. Shows what I don't know! I had 20+ year old VHS's of gigs like Dire Straits - 'Alchemy', and PF's - 'Live at Pompeii', and they both definitely stated 'Stereo' on them. The one copy of SKY-WA I've seen did not make any mention of this. Mike Breen lent me his Laser-Disk of the gig (glorious stereo), and I'm sure he mentioned the tape was mono. If anyone knows he should.
The Betamax machine I use to do transfers from (thanks for your tape loans Chris!) has twin RCA stereo outputs, but then so does my VHS. Still doesn't tell me how it's done though.
Bill D posted on Thursday, 30 March, 2006 - 04:31 pm
Some later early VHS VCRs had a twin linear track (with Dolby noise reduction), before the HiFi system was developed. (Or at least before they put it into a whole new batch of VCRs to sell!)
Tricky posted on Thursday, 30 March, 2006 - 09:52 pm
Myke, Bill - you're both right. At the risk of teaching my grandma to suck eggs - in order to accommodate the huge amounts of data needed to reproduce the graphical content, video tape has to be striped at an angle (effectively increasing the track length) to keep the size of the cartridge consumer friendly. It would be asking for playback trouble to record the stripe "edge to edge" - which leaves thin tracks at the rims of the tape for any extra content. I think the tracking (spin head timing), recording time, tick time (counter) etc signals are recorded here as well as the audio. On most recorders you can display the position of the tape when you insert or fast forward (etc) the cartridge, i.e. if the tape wasnít rewound, the display shows this. The spinning head would not be able to read some of these in FF, but the static heads would. If you've ever pulled one of these recorders apart, you'll see at least 2 static heads as well as the spinner, one of which is an erase head. Iím not sure if the erase head is also used to read signals in playback, FF etc mode. It would be a shame not to use it, as static record and erase heads are basically the same thing!
It's not possible to record the original transmitted TV signal because the carrier wave frequency is in the order of 550 MHz. Video tape isn't that good Ė itís had to be mass produced fast and cheap. The tape would have to feed through at 10+ miles per hour!
The unremoveable blatant adverting on my VHS says something like: - 6-Head Nicam HiFi Stereo NTSC. It's still under guarantee so I haven't had the nerve to take the lid off... yet...
Now that Iíve confused (cleared up?) the issue even more, Iíll bog-off!
Chris posted on Thursday, 30 March, 2006 - 09:59 pm
A pleasure Myke. Glad to be of service and I'd like to think that some of these old gems will be circulating amongst other members of this sky forum before too long.
I'm still looking for a copy of the 1980 Hammy Odeon gig, by the way! But don't hold your (collective) breath!
Thanks to Chris, I'm now working on a direct from TV 1st generation Betamax recording of the Xmas 83 Drury Lane concert. It's a lot cleaner and sharper than my previous VHS based version, and should make a really good DVD. Along with the collection of clips from the Val Doonican show, currently 5 in number (hopefully to be added to soon), I'm happy to arrange for anyone who wants to have a copy to get one. Just e-mail me for details.
P.S. I'm always on the lookout myself for that 1980 Hammy Odeon gig, it's what got me into the music myself. Recently a fan in Oz told me his local library had these but he couldn't get copies - shame!!
Chris posted on Saturday, 01 April, 2006 - 02:20 am
Now then. I'm fairly drunk at the moment, having just got in from a night out! Had the pleasure of bumping into a friend of mine who I used to be in a band with many years ago. He is moving to Australia soon (lived there briefly for a while) and will be living in Perth. He was telling me how he'd seen Hank Marvin's house when he was there. Apparently it's HUGE!!!! Only a tenuous sky link there, as I know Hank got up and played Toccata with sky when they played in Oz in the late 80s. I was telling him about Kevin Peek's studio, which I believe is called 'Planet' and is in Perth. He, in turn, was telling me about such delightful things as Funnelweb spiders and red backs, which sound awful. Anyway, who knows, with a contact out there, with music contacts, I might ask him if he can try to get hold of the video in question. A long shot, but who knows!
Right, I'm off to bed! Surprised myself by managing to write this much.
All the best.
Tim posted on Saturday, 01 April, 2006 - 10:05 am
'Planet Perth', ho ho ho.... bet that sounded even funnier last night!
Tricky posted on Saturday, 01 April, 2006 - 10:46 am
Far be it for me to be devious, or suggest anything dodgy, but (just daydreaming of course!) airmail to and from Oz isn't that much, and a late return libray fine wouldn't cost much either... I'd happily stand that. (If it's a video tape the library could even be offered a complimentary and compensatory DVD...) :-) :-)
Oh well, back to reality... ?
posted on Saturday, 01 April, 2006 - 07:12 pm
Now what are the chances of this coincidence and that actually happening? I dug through my old e-mails and got some details handy. The library in question which has these tapes is apparently the 'Alexander Library' in Perth. The following links I was given appear to list the Hammy Odeon gig details as 2 broadcasts / 2 tapes, just the way the BBC did them. Cut and paste these links and see if you agree with me. The only down side is that my contact in Perth said the library wouldn't loan them out, non-negotiable were his words. Anyone got any bright ideas?
Chris posted on Saturday, 01 April, 2006 - 11:28 pm
This is, indeed, an amazing set of coincidences. As I said, I saw my friend last night, who I used to be in a band with (hadn't seen him since last year), and he's moving not only to Australia quite soon, but also to Perth! He plays guitar/keyboards AND his girlfriend is a music promoter over there. Needless to say, I will do my utmost to see if he can help, unlikely as this seems. Weird or what?
What I also find intriguing is that this library has these tapes but won't lend them out. So what is the purpose of a library? Or are you just allowed to go in and watch them on a pre-booked TV? The plot thickens. But, I'm with you, Tricky, in that I'd be willing to pay the airmail and the library fine in order to get my hands on these tapes!!!
'Planet Perth'? - didn't Duran Duran write a song about that?
Head now clear, by the way. And wallet empty. If anyone can help me to remember where it all went last night, I'd be grateful. :0)
Tricky posted on Monday, 03 April, 2006 - 08:57 pm
Oh well, It's probably a long shot, but I've put a "Want it Now" posting on ebay. Stranger things have happened. It was only the 2nd time that I looked for the Videostars tape when it turned up - just lucky timing. (I wish the lottery worked that way for me - then I'd simply bribe a library employee... or something. Always fancied a holiday in Oz...)
Strangely, googling for the library listing, including the "Odion" mispelling didn't turn up a hit - so google isn't perfect after all. Do you have any more details on these tapes Myke? If an Oz library can have them, then...
Tricky posted on Monday, 03 April, 2006 - 09:13 pm
Oops, forgot to mention another long shot. Libraries tend to "hire" dvds and tapes to its members for a few quid - peanuts really. They also request stuff from each other if a member asks. The trouble is, the video lists are generally not public - you have to be a member for access. I've asked for a PIN for access. How many libraries are there in the UK? (It's not a quiz question - I don't want an answer!)
Tricky posted on Tuesday, 04 April, 2006 - 09:35 am
Holy crap! It would take forever to go through this lot! I tried looking for Hammersmith's library catalogue (seemed logical) but there doesn't seem to be one - just phone numbers. Another one I picked at random came up with a guest login screen, so the catalogue may not even show up in google. (Oldham council get a lot of stick - but at least the library service has an online catalogue. Not got my PIN yet - the wheels of bureaucracy...)
Tricky posted on Tuesday, 04 April, 2006 - 09:55 am
Is my memory faulty, or have I heard about a library somewhere in the UK (possibly Cambridge) that has a copy of every book (and maybe tape/dvd) ever made in the UK?
There are several legal deposit libraries in the British Isles: the British Library, the Bodleian Library, Oxford, the University Library, Cambridge, the National Library of Scotland, the Library of Trinity College, Dublin and the National Library of Wales. I'm not aware that legal deposit applies to non-print materials at the moment, though "electronic" publications are covered by a 2003 Act.
A quick check of the National Sound Archive reveals only an audio dub of the Abbey show.
posted on Wednesday, 05 April, 2006 - 05:49 pm
I'm afraid the only news I have is those weblinks to the Alexander Library in Perth. I keep looking, maybe one of those days . . . .
Otherwise I could contribute to the Hammy Odeon gig tape liberation front!!